Stock 96 Accord LX Wagon, 155,000 and no timing belt service.

For what it's worth, and for a good "I told you so" moment, all the parts to do the service have been sitting in a box on my workbench for a good 5 years now at least.

I admit readily I'm no expert with these things as my Accord is kind of my second car and grocery getting gas mileage getter as opposed to what I see a lot of you guys doing to them making them way cooler than mine. Hence my attitude of "I'll get to the timing belt someday." Well "someday" came.

Driving down the road about 75mph and the tach "blipped"(?) once and we coasted to a stop.

Turns over but that's it. I thought maybe distributor issue(after reading up here quite a bit) because it threw a "crankshaft position sensor" code and those appeared to be rare. Initial thoughts were just that. Something electrical related. Looking deeper knowing the timing belt hadn't been done I checked with a Honda tech buddy of mine and he said I should take the oil fill cap off and have someone turn it over, and if I don't see things moving inside, the timing belt let go.

That makes sense to me on the surface given the interference type engine, but just looking for a little confirmation before I pull anything apart. I don't see how anything strictly electrical would cause no movement internally.

I'm probably forgetting to mention some vital component you need to diagnose this, but is there anything else that could cause this? Only questioning I guess because of the code it threw. Maybe that's just typical when the belt lets go?

I did do the timing belt service on an old 91 Accord I had 15 years ago, so I think it will come back to me playing around inside it, but I can't hardly turn a wrench anymore without consulting the web experts. And I do work on my Land Cruiser religiously when I break stuff, but that I just have more experience playing around with.

Either way, I just don't want to be that guy that sounds like I know more than I do on an Accord Forum.

So back to my original question. If you confirm it's the timing belt, I'm assuming damage to valves etc inside.

1. Take head off and get machined/resurfaced/Valve job
2. New valves
3. Install all of the new parts from service kit(water pump, belts, balancer, seals, idler, etc)

Without committing internet forum taboo(I have searched and researched a ton of threads on this), can someone tell me if this makes sense as a plan of action?

Thanks in advance. This site has helped a lot of trouble shooting, but I'm in "overload mode" having read too much and now I'm just plain dummied up and want someone to tell me what to do. Cheers!

Brian

 

So did you watch for the camshaft moving when someone cranked it?

Normally when the valves are messed up, it will crank WITHOUT the sound of compression. IOW it'll sound like all the sparkplugs have been removed & it spins fast.

You said something about electronic (crankshaft position sensor) causing it... It's the other way around. The TDC sensor (at the crankshaft) is making a signal. But the camshaft isn't turning, so the CKP sensor (in the distributor) isn't going to be making any signal. Or if it is, the signal is so far out-of-synch that the ECU thinks its bogus.

First take off the valve cover & the upper timing cover so you can verify a broken timing belt. Often what happens is it skips a few teeth or you'll find several rubber teeth broken off of the belt. But the belt will appear to be OK on first glance.

If the cam-timing is off, then pull the belt & immediately turn the crank (forwards or backwards) to put the crankshaft timing mark 90-degrees away without moving through TDC or BDC. This will put all 4 pistons at mid-stroke so now you can spin the camshaft any which way without hitting anything.

Now go through the motions of measuring valve lash. You can turn the camshaft directly while the pistons stay at mid-stroke. You're looking for any valves with excessive clearance. I bet you'll find some like that, those are the bent ones. If you're lucky, none will be bent. Then you can move to a leak-down test to verify they are really OK. But check back for some warnings about doing this without a timing belt installed.

Most likely you'll find some bent valves, then move to your plan of steps 1, 2, 3. Or just take the head off right away regardless.

 

Thanks Jim.
Yes I looked and didn't see any movement inside so I was assuming the worst. After I had it towed home when it quit, I pulled the code to see what it said and it showed the CPS code. Started looking into distributor issue threads, but then while talking to my tech guy he mentioned checking for movement of the cam so I did and confirmed my fears.

It does sound like it's spinning way too "freely"(?), like you said.

When I get I little more time, I'll take it apart and get to the next step. I have 14 unfinished projects so I hated to tear this apart until I had some more direction. Thanks again.

 

Looks to me a belt missing where once there was one. Bummer.

 

Now it looks like the belt may have broken clean off (that's unusual). Do ya feel lucky? Check valve clearances the way I said. The valve springs will make the camshaft stop with all the valves nearly closed. There's a small chance that nothing crashed during the time the camshaft was coasting to a stop.

 

Yep. It's shredded down in the bottom of the cover. I can see bits and pieces of it. I've heard if they break clean there's a chance things don't go smashing together, but I'm not usually the guy that gets off that easy though so I won't get my hopes up. Sure would be nice though.

I won't likely get back to looking at it til the weekend, but we'll see. Thanks again for the insight. I love the internet.

 

I'll try not to bog this thread down with 100 separate questions, but is it typical to hear the valves smashing when they do? It seems like that would be something that makes an ugly noise. I heard nothing when mine blew. Literally like someone just turned off the key and we coasted to a stop.

I need to find the source of a bunch of oil leaks while I have this torn apart too and hopefully clean up two issues at the same time. Is there a FAQ somewhere that shows all the seals/gaskets/gizmos that should/could be replaced while you're in there? I hate just throwing parts at something, but I really only want to do this once if I can help it.

Thanks again

 

It is likely that you wouldn't hear it. Once the timing belt breaks, the valves that were closed would not be damaged. The valve that were open would get bent when first hit. When my friend's timing belt broke, I couldn't hear any strange noises when he tried to start the car later. It starter spun the engine way to fast. It didn't have the normal sound of a starter cranking the engine.

You are going to have to remove the cylinder head and take it to a machine shop to see if they can repair it. I think they will replace the valve guides and seals. Any damaged valves will need replaced. You may be better off getting a used cylinder head. It will still have to be milled at a machine shop so it is perfectly flat.

Is your oil leak internal (burning oil?), or external (running down the side of the engine block, or spark plug tubes filling up with oil?).

 

Yeah, probably not loud enough to get through the soundproofing so you won't hear it while driving.

 

On the oil leaks, it may not be tied to any timing belt issues. I had oil leaks long before this belt broke. Not burning any oil as far as I can tell. Lots of drips on the ground that have been getting worse.

The plug tubes were full of oil when I took the valve cover off yesterday though. No idea if it had been leaking before the timing belt blew. I replaced the wires once but that's been a few years, but not too many actual miles ago.

I just started searching oil leak threads to find the common culprits, but I'd like to replace anything rubber-like while I have stuff apart to cure anything that leaks. If I spend an extra $50 on gaskets/seals, etc, I think it would be worth it to me for piece of mind. That, and that extra $50 would be eaten up with 2 tanks of gas mileage savings not having to drive my truck for a week.