OK I have the V-6 Supplemental shop manual for my 1996 V6 2.7L and have read the posts for hours and its a bit hazy on the old and rare V-6
I WANT TO BE CERTAIN that I am completely clear on this because the 4 cylinder is DIFFERENT so I am here for you expertise on V6 TB installation.

THE FACTS:

1. The TB job had a few different people begin the process, before I get involved. The old TB is off already with out any reference marks.
2. The Cams appear to be TDC at this time. I ASSUME that they were positioned that way BEFORE the old TB was removed. I DO NOT know for certain.
3. The crankshaft TB sprocket was stuck for a year and a few folks failed to remove it but did manage to rotate the crankshaft off of TDC ( Key ^ UP )
4. It is UNKNOWN which direction (CW or CCW) and/or how many rotations (if any) occurred after the belt was removed from the cams and crank.
5. The new crankshaft sprocket and woodruff are now TDC.
6. It is a complete unknown if there were complete crankshaft rotations in either or both directions after the TDC was removed.
7. It is unknown if there was any damage or force exerted to the crank or if that could damage the valves without the TB on while cams are TDC.

OK What I really need to know is EXACTLY what I need to do, STEP BY STEP to be absolutely certain I have this sucker perfectly aligned like at the Honda factory. There is a lot of fuzzy language in the service manual about rotating the crankshaft CW or CCW or unspecified direction at various stages of removing and installing the TB and Water Pump. And frankly, I'm pissed that I paid so much for a manual that literally has me jumping from page to page to page a dozen times in order to piece together the entire process from start to finish. All the while, this manual assumes that the position of the Crank and Cam TDC are exactly wher they should be, and absolutely no information how to VERIFY this TDC is in fact CORRECT. Let me remind the reader, this is a V-6 and therefore the ratio is not 1:1 between the Cams and Crank so IF the cranks spun once its not correct. It needs to have moved 0 or 3 rotations (I believe but I can't be certain) or its not correct IF the cams were TDC when the TB was removed. Removing the #1 spark plug wont tell me about the crank.

Also, if you could please elaborate the detail about the rotation of the TB sprocket pulley and/or harmonic balancer pulley wheel while positioning the timing belt and the tensioner. The service manual is very unspecific about which direction and how much rotation is required to get the belt positioned properly without DAMAGING something and that simply baffles my puny mind and lack familiarity with the terse lingo on general purpose illustrations that are not specific to the singular task that I am attempting from my nebulous starting point. Given the nebulosity of what don't know for certain, how would you proceed if this was in your driveway (not a pro garage with lifts or air tools) and access to all that Autozone or Napa supplies. I'd prefer not to have to take anything more apart, like valve covers or oil pumps.

I should also specify that I have a new water pump, tensioner, and belt, ready to install. I have not yet removed the 2 cam seals or the crank seal but I do have new ones to install if recommended. I would like details on the correct way to remove the old and install the new, if so advised. For instance, how it should be lubricated and if I can use some PVC instead of the obsolete seal tool mentioned in the manual.

The old water pump is already removed. The three TB covers and seals and bolts, the TDC/CYP and the CKP sensors, dipstick, tensioner bolts and spring, harmonic balancer and its pulley bolt are all removed and will be used again in the reassembly unless its recommended I replace something. Please advice if grey gasket sealant should be applied to the water pump o-ring and bolts (as they were on what came off) . I've got Honda coolant, PS fluid, and fresh old ready. The car has not started in 2 years but in ran perfectly before the harmonic balancer came off. I'll be putting in new gas, new brake fluid, fresh battery but if there is something else you advise with a car that has been sitting so long then please let me know.

THANK YOU very much for helping me, especially with a 1996 factory service manual supplement in hand, but I just don't want to blow it now. I apologize if this seems like a we documented topic but I assure you its is NOT when it comes to an antique v6, iron case engine (c27a4) that was in Rover and Acura for years before they modified it for the 95-97 V6 Accords made in Ohio,. Its a great engine but quite hard to find on youtube anymore or in any detailed DIY with diagrams or images that actually still exist. All links on the topic are dead ends as well. They once existed, last century and millennium, 4 Honda generations ago,

So I guess this is dinosaur stuff. Jurassic accord and fossilized newbie appreciate your consideration.

 

The crankshaft turns 2 revolutions for every one revolution of the camshaft even on a V6. To convince yourself, count the teeth on the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket. The cam should have twice the number of teeth. If this wasn't the case, the engine would jump time after the first revolution of the engine.

You won't know if someone turned the crankshaft with the timing belt removed, so you have to hope this didn't happen. There should be an arrow on the engine block at 12 o'clock for the crank sprocket, and the sprocket should have a mark on one of it's teeth. There should be a groove at 1 o'clock on the rear cam and a mark on a tooth of the cam sprocket. The front cam should have a yellow mark at 12 o'clock and a tooth marked as well. Just make sure these are lined up.

When feeding the new timing belt, start at the crank sprocket, then get the timing belt on the front with little slack. Then get the timing belt on the rear cam. Binder clips help with holding the belt on the cam sprocket. The get the belt around the tensioner. Then adjust the tension. You will want to rotate the engine by hand with the spark plugs removed to make it easier. Get the crank to TDC, and check that your marks on both cams line up. If not, install the binder clips to the cam, and mark the TB on the crank. Then make the adjustment you need on the cam. Being off one tooth will not damage the engine when rotating. Repeat spinning the engine by hand and getting the crank to TDC until you are convinced your belt is lined up. I did this 5 times on my first timing belt job to make sure I got the belt lined up.

I would clean up any RTV off the engine block for the water pump and only use the gasket. If the gasket wants to fall out when installing the water pump, then a few dabs between the water pump o-ring and the water pump are ok. I hate having to remove a water pump that has rtv sealing it to the engine block and I think the gasket does the sealing.

For the crank and cam seals no RTV. Use a seal removal tool if you have one. If not, a pick will work, just be sure to to dig the pick into the engine block on the outside, or you will essentially create a leak. I just hook the pick through the top of the seal kink of like a fishing hook to pull out the old seal. To install, you just need something like a socket that fits around the outside of the seal to push the new seal in perpendicular to the block. If you have a bolt and the right sized socket and maybe a washer, you can essentially make the seal installation tool.

Here is a video on how to get the tension adjusted. This is for a 4-cylinder, but this is the same procedure for the V6.

 

Thank you for your detailed reply. Below you say:

This is the problem. I have no way to know. So what is the procedure when it is unknown that will not damage anything? It is NOT safe to assume anything other than the cams seem to both be where they are supposed to be. Is that even possible if the crank was rotated plus or minus 360 degrees? Could there already be damage to something if that is true. How do I verify any of this. I just don't want to make things any worse by hoping for the best. Hope has done nothing for this car in two years, and its apparently all spent.

One Note: The spark plugs have NOT been removed since the engine last ran. It was difficult to rotate the the crank approx 100 degrees back towards TDC. It had wandered in the process of a gear pullers engagement with the stuck crankshaft TB sprocket and the broken woodruff key that sheared in half when the harmonic balancer and pulley bolt flew off. Since the gear puller required some torque to turn by hand, at some point in that process, there was rotation to the CRANK shaft. Before that puller failed its may have caused opposite rotation to the crank during removal. It is uncertain how much rotation occurred, or in which directions, during the sprocket pulling process, while the cams above remained apparently stationary TDC since the belt was already removed long ago.

I jumped into the process at the point when the bent and broken gear puller number one was dangling on the crankshaft which was nowhere near TDC. Its anyone's guess if I guessed correctly by rotating to the shortest distance to TDC...turning it approx 120 degrees instead of 240 degrees the other direction. Like I said, that crank had wandered in either or both directions prior to making the best guess. I just want to stop guessing and proceed with a process that will get it done without breaking something. I am trying to avoid any guessing that could bend valves or require that i take apart anything more, if at all possible.

Thanks in advance for yours or any other input from anyone else. I'll check back in a few days to see what anyone has to say. I'll follow up down the road to document my results for the thread.

 

I see your issue, you don’t know if the crank has been rotated. That is a major bummer. Most manufacturers, not just Honda, put marks, pins, or stamps on the crank and cams to make certain your are at TDC. There has to be some reference marks somewhere for TDC. I’d love to see some pictures of the cam and crank marks and I may be able to help. I’m new to the site so maybe message me a picture?

 

If I'm not mistaken the marks should be on the pulley (1 single mark and 3 grouped marks if I'm not mistaken). Put the pulley back on and rotate until the marks line up.

 

I think you did the right thing by turning the crankshaft the shortest rotation to TDC.

Since the spark plugs were never removed, there is a good chance the crank wasn't turned with the timing belt removed. I remember it took quite a bit of force to turn the crankshaft with the spark plugs installed, because you are fighting the compression in the engine. You almost have to hope the previous folks working on the engine weren't complete idiots and didn't rotate the crankshaft and bend the valves.

The only way you will know for certain that you had no valve damage is to get the timing belt installed, tensioned, then verify you have the timing marks lined up. Then install the crank pulley and crank bolt. Then do a compression test and/or leakdown test.

You won't make any potential damage worse if you install the timing belt correctly and try to crank the engine. The damage would be previously done.

The alternative is to pull each cylinder head and see if the valves are seating properly. This would be a lot of extra work and expense, because you should have the cylinder head milled to be perfectly flat and would also a head gasket for each cylinder head.

If this were my car, I'd install the timing belt properly and all the covers, pulleys, etc. then try to start the car to see how it runs.

 

You're right. That's what I'm going to do. The fact is I would have to open up each cylinder and see if the valves are seating properly. Considering the fact that I have not done that before and that I am outside in the back yard and not where I have control of the environment, its probably worth not doing that. I'll assume I rotated the shortest distance to the correct spot.

I will try to get some photos, if possible from the very constricted angles so that I can upload them in a postmortem for those interested, and perhaps will scan some pages from the V6 supplemental manual s well.

I REALLY APPRECIATE all of the thoughtful input and consideration on my older uncommon engine. The 94-97 Accords were mostly 4 cylinder. In fact, I live near two pick-n-pulls that notify me of any 5th gen v6 arrivals and there have been only two in four months. that's not many for central California.

Anyway, either way it goes from here I feel I can make an informed decision that takes into account my real limitations in the situation. So, I will hope for the best, That is smarter then me opening another six cylinders of worms that are safer unopened with a wink and a prayer than me breaking stuff that ain't broke and has better odds of success with a coin toss than it does with a blind, one armed, neophyte in the dirt opening heads The known unknowns are better odds.

Thank you!

 

At this point in time you have nothing to lose. The end of the crank was already messed up by the previous mechanic (?). If anything, the crank probably turned a few degrees Clock Wise, and just needs to be rotated back like PA said (back Counter Clock Wise). If you think about how you got that gear and it's related parts off, you really didn't turn it very far. So bring it back to TDC, and go from there. Just make sure all the other points are lined up, and follow the instructions on installing the TB. That's the one nice thing about the water pump and TB kit I got from Rock Auto for my wife's car (a 4cylinder), the instructions that came with it walk you thru step by step. My wife's 00 Accord was the first Timing Belt I ever replaced, and there were 2 belts (one for timing, and 1 for the balance shaft).:O I was very nervous doing it, as I was mainly in there to replace the leaking water pump, and found that was the best time to do the belts.

When I bought my 99 Accord 4 cylinder, the pulley was already loose (had worn the key way to about 4 times it's normal size) and the key had come out of the lower timing gear and was bent. I bought a new pulley and key, then reset the timing (it was retarded 3 teeth, but still barely ran), then put it back together. It fired right up, and ran beautifully. I did this first, as I didn't know if the engine had suffered any engine damage as the timing had changed on it while it was driven (these are interference engines after all). Afterward, I ordered up a new timing belt kit for it, and replaced it (not knowing how many miles were on the old one). That was 3 years ago. I still have that car, and use it occasionally as everything works on it (even the AC), but I mainly picked it up for a dedicated winter car (we get real winters here), and it has snow tires on all 4 corners, and a stainless steel exhaust. I've also done other work to it, including replacing the front hub bearings, the rotors and the bottom ball joints, along with the upper control arms, and tie rod ends. I did a lot of that because I hate working on cars in the winter, especially when they're covered in road slush.
I think if you take your time, don't get in any hurry, make sure all of your timing marks line up, you should be good to go. We're here for you. Good luck, and make it happen.

 

For those who are following this thread I thought it might be helpful to show some very helpful pages from the 61SV404 1996 Honda Accord V6 Supplemental Service Manual Excerpt of pages 6-3 through 6-10 which diagrams the process officially by Honda in 1996. This is just the V6 supplemental (61SV404) which accompanies the manual that covers the 4 cylinder engine and a great deal more detail about the Accord Sedan overall for the 1995, 1996, 1997 respectively (61SV401, 61SV403, 61SV405)
HERE THEY ARE:











I still have not finished with this yet. I installed the new water pump and I am about to replace the seals and test the TDC/CYP & CKP Sensors before rolling the dice....

In the mean time the above information IS CORRECT AND HELPFUL no matter what I screw up in the process. If you don't hear back from me on this then at least I have contributed something helpful, I hope, with this detail. If the documents don't last forever I will attempt to reference the image on other servers and keep you all informed. I can see that not a lot of this type of document survives long - but I'll be damned if the car out lasts free access to the information on the internet!!

Think of Mel Gibson in Brave Heart with the blue face war paint screaming FREEDOM ! On that note Happy Independence Day !!
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