This message has made me think not about Muslims and whether or not they are good or bad, but it has helped me remember to never forget what happened on 9/11. Regardless of who did what, or whatever, the truth of the matter is that 9/11 sucked a lot, and those people's families will never be the same again.. I think that we need to all remember 9/11, and biased or not, remember that the real issue is the fact that many innocent people were killed that day.

 

Just like any other post of potentially volitile nature I'll put up the disclaimer.... if it gets out of hand or starts to upset people it will be removed as soon as it's caught.... In the off topic section conversations are allowed on whatever level you'd like so long as it's not blatently offensive or a flame war..... now....


Almost all wars throughout history have been based on religon or belief.... except perhaps the Revolutionary war.... that was more about freedom than anything (if I remember right.... I'm not a historian...) but other than that conflicting views and religon have driven nearly every war in history.... I've traveled to a number of different countries and seen a variety of different views and thoughts some I agree with some I don't but I think that's what makes things so great, the differences.... the world is a giant case of the statement that "sometimes our greatest asset is our biggest downfall...."

 

To me,a deficiency in what was forwarded is that it makes no mention of the political and historical context of the 9/11event. Apparently, as far as it is concerned, nothing that occuredbefore 9/11 matters one iota,because absolutely nothing could "justify" what happened on that day.

But the roots of the present go very deep indeed, and it is a very dangerous, self-servingthing to do to drive a stake into a calendarand declare "history begins here".

To put the number of people killed on 9/11 into some kind of size/tragedyperspective, likely somewhere around 43,000 innocent people will die on US roads this year, and some will suffer terribly before they do so, and their relatives will mourn for their dead.This type of carnage has happened annuallybefore andsince 9/11, but therehas never appearedto me to be a senseof nationaloutrage over it, nordoes it appear tome thatthere isthe nationalmotivation toprevent thesetragic deaths from happening in the future, as there wasafter 9/11.It seems to me that it isthe automobileinsurance industry, more than anything else, that movitatesroad safety inintiatives, but maybe my impression is completely wrong on this.

Innocent people died needlessly eonsbefore 9/11, and continue to die all over the worldas we write our posts. Every singleone of them was/is tragic.

Nowadays the word "terrorist" is a very important, commonly uttered word - particularly by politicians of all stripes. Because it is so important a word, one would assume that everyone agrees on its meaning, but this is not the case. In fact, it isquiteapparentthat one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and, IMO, this is exactly why politicians all over the worldlove the word so dearly.

To me it seems that an important first step in gettingcontemporary human beingsto understand, accept, and live peacefully witheach other would be for themto agreewhat that importantword means -in other words, agree onwhat behavior constitutes terrorism. After all, without knowing what it means, how can one possiblyfight a war against it?

I think everyonemust agree that if Icondemn someoneasa terrorist for commiting a certain act, I must alsobe condemned asa terrorist if Icommit the same act.Ifnationscannotagree on that simple equation, then there will never be peace on Earth. Humanity cannot allow "terrorism",like "beauty",tobe determinedsolelyinthe eye of the beholder.

 

I'd agree tony.... That's one of the things people will notice from traveling.... I don't think though that it's so much as to define what "terrorisim" is as to set down and have followed by everyone a set of guidelines for what is right/acceptable and what is wrong (which I often question if that's even feasable..)... The various nations being split over this fact is what got us into two world wars already.... A common set of intiatives and defenitions of issues would move greatly to help stem needless acts.....

<Begin Rant>
speaking of double standards and common goals.... to hear people saying that we shouldn't help people in other nations, let them fix there problems, then turn around and help donate some $70million dollars (american idol) to help a foreign country seems like a double standard to me.... I believe that if someone (be it a nation or a person) is in a position to help another person that we should, but don't point fingers about how helping in one way is right or wrong but helping in another way is right.... There needs to be an end to double standards (in my opinion....)
</End Rant>

 

Glad to see everyone is replying so much! I think discussing things maturely is fine. This site is full of people who are mature and can discuss things like adults, hence why I felt I could post the forward without being warned. Like Sir_Nasty said, please no flaming! I just wanted to see opinions and such. I also strongly agree with Nightbreeze's post. Also, you are welcome WheelBrokerAng

I see it differently. In my opinion, when you hop in a car and drive it, you are taking an assumed risk that something may possibly happen to you or your passengers. But when you are in a high rise tower, you dont really assume a risk of a plane crashing into and killing thousands of people. In a car, you at least usually have some sort of a chance to divert your direction as you are in control. But in the towers, they couldnt simply move the tower or jump out a window. Just my opinion, not trying to flame. But then again I do see where you come from.

It just makes it so unfair, when the enemy we are fighting dont go by any sort of ethical rules (not that killing really is I suppose) or the Geneva Code. I mean seriously, if they can kill their own children and behead people, I think that calls for a little more provoking means of interrogating pow's at our camps to reduce events like those.

 

I have to go with Tony on this on this as well. George Carlin does a good bit on the double standards used in the US and the rest of the world. While we're at it, can we take a review of the word "hero" as well?

I undersatnd your points, but have this to reply.

Personally, I feel that every breath you take is a risk in an of itself. We're not in Kansas any more Totto, and there are deadly dangers all around you at all times. There is no promise that your next inhale won't be file with poison gas from an over turned tanker down the street, that the gas leak from aging pipes won't suddenly ignite when you flip on the lights and take your whole house down, that your door won't be kicked in by a maniac, etc. And because of these risks, you need to make sure you put as much into the breath you just took as you can - you don't know if you're going ot get another one.

As for the enemy not playing fair, to somewhat quote one of my favorite book/movie lines, "Life isn't fair. Anyone who says differently is selling something." So, you have to decicide - stick by the civilized and moral rules that you want to instill in these people as being the better way, or, fight on their terms and be no more civilized and moral than they are.

Personally, I do see a point in roughing up possible informants during times of war, and I do not agree that humiliation is torture. But, you have to follow your own rules.


(p.s. the Totto remark was meant as a saying, not name calling.)

 

Thank You Tony1M for your comments also..
I shall always be the keeper of the civilized words in our forums so that when or if things get out of hand I shall be the Squasher of the thread.
I expect all of the men and women in this forum to respect each others words, no matter what one types in here..this is Free Speech at it's finest level...so no one person shall be the one who needs to rant or rave about anothers comments.
If someone does not like what the other person says then dont comment on it if it rubs you the wrong way...just let it lay..if your not the kind of person who can just let it lay then he is my only suggestion *And I Will Expect This To Be Followed*
We have a way for all people to contact each other and that is for you to PM that person Remember that!

I will not allow any bashing in this Forum so DONT TRY IT..leave that for the PM area..

Thank You All Very Much For Reading This and Complying To It Also...

WheelBrokerAng

 

Never make fun of a man's beliefs. Just agree to disagree and move on.

 

There are many wars that werent started because of religious beliefs, WW1 and WW2 were started because of assassinations and religion became the reason because thats what everyone always refer to Hilter saw it as a chance to get back at his parents (heaven forbid someone be related to a jew and have it be one of their parents). Granted i'm really not pointing out the finer points of his slaughter. But in general, most wars/fights/skirmishes are due religious intolerance.

I whole heartedly agree with cobey on life and risk as well as the rules of engagement. Maybe not so much on the torture part but a country should follow its own rules... or change them.

Life has the inheirent property of eventual death, it will happen no matter what you do, it is nothing that anyone can stop. After all, it is the only form of population control that exists in a world that freely has children without concern to the condition of life that the child will come in to. I am a person who accepts death at any point. If its someone I love I wont be happy about it, but I accept that it was their time, be it early in life or late in life. Why? because the loved one is dead theres nothing you can do about it.... wellkeeping in mind that you didnt kill them or werent in a position that you know you would have saved their life. In the end I have the view that when a friend or family member dies, you should have a gathering of friends and loveones for it. Celebrate the life they had and the memories that have been had with them, keep them in mind and acknowledge that they were there and move on.
Granted my opinion goes far deeper then that on all this but with the topic at hand It was something that ultimately had to happen. It still didnt get everyone past their own selfish ideals and it didnt help everyone realize that we are a hated country by many and unfortunately something like this could happen again as a result of the ignorant bliss that people choose to be in.

And at this point...... im not sure if i even started with a point lol

 

Thanks for making sure it stays civiliazed in here! But as for the above part I am assuming you mean starting heated arguments correct? Just checking.


I never really thought of it that way, so thanks for pointing it out. Maybe we are both right? hehe

As for earlier when someone asked why drunk driving deaths/accidents dont get as much coveraage, I think its simply because such a large mass of people died at one time, not to mention an act of terror happens all that often. Plus the stories of the heroes and firefighters and such I think are stories that need to be told, after all they did risk/give their lives.

I do agree that most wars start with religious things as well. I really dont know how we can stop the al-quida and related groups. We can't just drop a massive bomb as we did with Hiroshima, as they blow up their own people so it wouldnt really affect them. In my views this is a really tough war, even with superior technology...they hide in caves, act like civilians during the day, attack at night and you cant really do much to prevent that.